Four years ago, Jack Rhysider quit his job as a security engineer to move full time into the storytelling business. His podcast, Darknet Diaries, now boasts tens of millions of total downloads and has explored cybersecurity topics from Stuxnet to the collapse of cryptocurrency exchange Mt. Gox. Building Darknet Diaries into a successful show was no cakewalk. In the latest episode of WE’RE IN!, Jack shares his experience putting on a great podcast, from ideation and guest selection all the way to monetization and fielding calls from Hollywood producers. “Don’t think about how big of an audience you have,” he said. “You need to find the right person in your head, of who would love this show, and just deliver it to them in a great way.”
Four years ago, Jack Rhysider quit his job as a security engineer to move full time into the storytelling business. His podcast, Darknet Diaries, now boasts tens of millions of total downloads and has explored cybersecurity topics from Stuxnet to the collapse of cryptocurrency exchange Mt. Gox.
Building Darknet Diaries into a successful show was no cakewalk. In the latest episode of WE’RE IN!, Jack shares his experience putting on a great podcast, from ideation and guest selection all the way to monetization and fielding calls from Hollywood producers.
“Don’t think about how big of an audience you have,” he said. “You need to find the right person in your head, of who would love this show, and just deliver it to them in a great way.”
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Even if you’re not a podcast creator, there are plenty of reasons to listen:
* Glean Jack’s insights into the creative process, including the importance of self-reflection and listening with “fresh ears”
* Hear how he navigates constant deadline pressure while avoiding burnout
* Learn the secrets behind the most suspenseful moments in any great story
[00:00:00]
Jeremiah: Thank you Jack. Welcome to the show. Uh, I think I can speak for all of us and say, we're super excited to talk to you. Um, your podcast is obviously amazing. We've got a lot to ask you about podcasting and about the success of your show, but we'd also like to talk about how you got started in security.
Jack: Yeah, it was kind of an accident. So I had, I had gone to university to get a degree in computer engineering. It's just like here's one class on Java. Here's one class on assembly. Here's one class on operating systems. Like there's no deep dive in anything. So I came out of that. Not really sure where to go.
Am I a programmer? Am I a. Like, I don't even know which direction here. So, um, I didn't, I just did odd odds and ends jobs, odds, and ends jobs for a long time. And then I finally was like, no, I need to get back into tech. So I got a Cisco certification CCNA, and that got me in a knock [00:01:00] and I just kept going with cert.
So I was like, all right, we'll see, CNP seems to be next. And this company was. You need to be an engineer, not like a knock technician. Um, we have a opening for security engineer and at the time I didn't even know how to like, do basic commands on a firewall, even though I was like, like CCNB certified. And, uh, that was like, yeah, engineer.
I'll take it. I don't, I
Jeremiah: done.
Jack: once I got into a security engineering, that's when everything like all the puzzle pieces fit in my life, where I was like, you know, a little bit about all these things, and now you're applying them to secure systems. Perfect. And I had to know a little bit about how voiceover IP works and how operating systems work and how programming languages work.
Like all that stuff was making sense to me. Now, I was like, finally, I get to use all my knowledge here. And it was just like a match made in heaven.
Jeremiah: So Jack at one point, were you like, okay, now I've got all of this information, I've got this knowledge, I've got this background, things are lining up. At what point do you take that and say, I'm going to do a podcast.
Jack: Um, yeah, so I think the first thing I thought of is I'm going to make a blog uh, you know, I was, I was at work. You, you hit these puzzles, these problems that you're just. Yeah, I'll just Google that. And there's no answer on Google and you're like, all right, I'll look in forums and there's no answering forums.
There's no material anywhere. So you're like, okay, I've got to just figure this out in the lab. And so that's the kind of stuff that I was blogging about is like, when you hit this problem, here's how to solve it. And then another time I would just be like, I'm tired of Googling this every time I have to solve this problem.
So I'll just, I know I hit this problem all the time. I might as well just blog about it. So I've got my like reference there. And so for seven years I was blogging and I was writing all this technical stuff and this [00:04:00] complicated problem solving and trying to explain these, these things as best I could.
And, and when you, when you have like a problem in your head and you know how to solve it, Makes sense in your head, but when you try to write it and not sense. And so I
Bella: start to notice all the gaps in your, in your understanding.
Jack: absolutely, and you have to go back and say, wait, I don't even know what I'm talking about here. I think I know this, but it's not anywhere close. So you go back and you research and you understand more. And I think that whole process just made me say. Well, how do I, I mean, I'm seeing people like come to the site and say, thank you.
I couldn't find this answer anywhere. And I'm like, well, how do I teach more people, more things? How do I help more people do things. So do I make a class? Do I make a course? I don't know. And at the same time, I was also really into podcasts. I was listening to serial and this American life and radio lab, and it was just. And I'm like, well, and of course, lots of security podcasts. And I'm like, where's the security podcast that goes into these crazy stories of this high [00:05:00] drama and these heists and these people breaking into buildings and dropping USB keys. Like this is a fun, exciting story here, but nobody's talking about it.
I mean, they're, they're talking about it in a way of like here's breaking news and we don't really know what's going on, but this is what we know. And then of course, you know, you find out a week later, that's totally wrong. And if you, if like, if something new comes out a year later, you, it doesn't even hit your news cycle.
Right. And so you're like, so I wanted like this soup to nuts, to beginning all the way until the end of a whole story. And, you know, maybe we have to go five years in the back and past to hear the, to understand the whole thing. And that's where I was like, that show doesn't exist. I want that to exist. And I pitched a whole bunch of podcasters, but none of them really understood what I was talking about.
So I was like, ah, I have to make this myself. Uh, worst, but cause I didn't understand anything about audio or anything. And it just was like, ah, this sounds like I want make, uh, something that I could just set and forget like some sort of software [00:06:00] as a service or something that you just pay a monthly fee while you go.
And I don't have to make any new features on the site ever on a podcast. It's like, I gotta do this again every two weeks. There's no end to it. So, uh, I didn't really want to do it. And I don't like writing. But I thought, okay, I've got this idea. Let's see if it can form into something. And I played around with, uh, I read some books on how to storytell with audio and, and put one episode together and I showed it to some friends and they said, yeah, this needs to be out there.
Go for it. And so once I got the green light from some friends, I was like, all right, let's do it.
Bella: I think it's funny hearing you say, like, you didn't want to do it at first or you don't like writing because I like in preparation for this, I listened to the first episode of darkness diaries, because like, why not? Um, which is great by the way. Uh, you, I would never, I feel like you're, even in that first episode, you sound so like in your.
In [00:07:00] this, like what you described of the sort of storytelling, the backstory of what's going on in cybersecurity, like it's, it comes really naturally to you. Uh, so it's kind of interesting hearing you say that maybe that's not your perspective on it.
Jack: I really like learning, going to like a class, learning something or going to a conference and then bringing that back and telling the team, right. So we'd have these lunch and learns and I'd stand I'd stand in front of the team. And my favorite thing was to, was to see jaws just dropped open in the, in the thing.
So I would try to do this, like. Build up kind of tip of the arrow and then this happened and, oh my gosh, isn't that the craziest thing I did all these like lunch and learns, trying to get PR and none of it works. People were sleeping in the, in the meeting. You weren't paying attention. It was, it was never this like, ah, big moment.
So maybe that's where I felt like in my element of like, okay, this is what. Learned, and this is what I want to show you. And, you know, maybe that had some practice to it, but yeah, I don't, I don't know. It [00:08:00] must've just been like listening to a lot of podcasts and just, I was literally like, okay, how do they start the show?
Let's listen to 30 different podcasts here, just the first 10 seconds and see how they start it. Okay, great. Now, how do they do the theme music? Let's go to the theme on every one of them. And I was really dissecting it in like this crazy. Maniac way, uh, hear the cadence of their voice and okay. This one sounds more newsy, you know, like this weekend hackers broke into a federal building based on the, you know, and it was just like, it's a tone.
There is a little different. And then these ones were like, oh man, did you hear what happened this weekend? And that was just a little too casual. And so it was kind of a mix of like, where do I want it to be? And yeah, I just kind of ended up there.
Bella: So it sounds like even prepping for like the first ever episode. You did a lot of like, You know, analysis of what kind of show you wanted, what direction you wanted to go in, even down to the tone of your voice and, and the like has anything. [00:09:00] Have there, have there been any major changes in your approach since then? Cause I guess the first episode was back in 2017, like that's, you've been doing this for a while now.
Jack: Yeah. I mean, I think I podcast, I started podcasting way earlier than I was ready, but I was just like, let's just go through the motion. Let's get the train wheels moving and we'll just keep moving. Right. We'll see how it goes. So yeah, I read a lot of stuff. I did a lot of research then, but as I was doing it, I said, okay, I don't know if I like this tone.
Let's try some others. And so. I listened to a lot more podcasts and just tried to mimic the exact tone and delivery and writing style. Right? So Aaron Mankey from lore, uh, Malcolm Gladwell from his podcast, uh, and this American [00:10:00] life Radiolab, like I, I was like, how do they talk? Okay. Like even, even in Radiolab, they said like, as they're delivering it, sometimes puts his leg up on the desk.
Like, um, you know, captain Jack and, and, uh, like just the show that way and this like, and his arms are flapping in the air and he's just like, excited about it. And I'm like, okay, I'll try to deliver it in that way. Right. And, and Malcolm Gladwell has this thing where he, he makes you think more and he puts things on a point and this lets it float out there.
And he sometimes lets. Uh, silence for nine seconds just for you to think it through. I mean, there's a little music behind it or something, but he's got a different way of writing. And so I tried all these things and honestly, what I wanted in my head was Mr. Uh, Mr. Robot, and the way Elliot talks to the camera, he's got this real monotone dead kind of voice.
I was like, well, I know it was act asking like a voice coach is like, how do I get that voice? And they're like, well, that guy is in, has serious insomnia. So. I was like, [00:11:00] I'll just stay up for 4:00 AM. So I was actually doing episodes, like really tired, trying to have this horrible sleep drive to see if that is what I need in the show.
Right. So there was a lot of experience mentation and churn and trying on different voices and all these different things. Before I landed on what I felt. The most comfortable for me, the easiest to sustain and what just felt. Right. So I think it was probably 20 episodes in where I finally got into my group.
Bella: So at this point, are you recording your episodes at 4:00 AM?
Jack: No, not anymore because now I don't even feel like it's a, it's a voice that I'm putting on. It doesn't feel like it's a special kind of thing. It feels just so natural. And I'm just like, why didn't I just do that from the beginning? Why was I trying all these different voices? But I do realize, like there is something that I get, I gained from all this inspiration.
Jeremiah: They would say the most natural feeling, easiest voice for you to do in communication style is [00:12:00] always the best bet to go, I think is what I've heard. Um, so out of curiosity, when you were, um, conducting all of these experiments and trying to flush out your tone and your audio, did you, um, have any help along the way when you were doing.
Jack: Uh, I mean a little bit, I was very active on Reddit and I was talking to a lot of people and I was reading like all the blog posts that people were posting about all this. And, um, I, I, a lot of times I would actually reach out to some of my favorite people in podcast and be like, Hey, I know you did the sound design for the, your show.
Can you check the sound design for this one episode I have. And just maybe even the first five or 10 minutes, just to give me any sort of feedback on, on what I can do better or something. So. Yeah. I mean, I was just really active in the podcast community. I wanted to go to the bottom of that barrel of, of knowledge there and say, how far does this go?
How w who knows the most, where is [00:13:00] all the, all this written? And so I was reading book after book and, um, every blog there was, and talking with everyone in the, in the industry. So I, I did have a lot of help from just random conversations and being present. And it it's one of those things where. You don't like w when you're searching for like mentorship or something, it's really hard to find it.
If you just kind of sit there, but if you're, if you're jumping in and you're going to the conferences and you're going, I mean, I was going to podcast conferences and meetups and all these things, and then just the more present you are, and the more active you are in the committee. The more chances.
You're going to find someone who you resonate with, that you look up to and all these kinds of things. And I ended up finding someone who was really influential and she ended up later getting a job at a major podcast network. And it was amazing to see her career go from like nowhere. But she had a lot of really good ideas to being one of the, one of the most respected. [00:14:00] People out there in the podcast field. So it was fun to see for her to kind of watch me grow and me to watch her grow. It was really wild. So it wasn't really someone I looked up to, but definitely, uh, she gave me a lot of help early on.
Jeremiah: That's awesome. Um, I was wondering if you could walk us through your process a little bit, you know, how do you find stories and, um, what really excites you about a particular subject?
Jack: Yeah, so story, I get stories from a lot of different ways. So I can first, I was just listening to a lot of podcasts, a lot of security conferences, right? So besides the recording, Uh, deaf cons recorded black hats recorded. You can just go watch it on YouTube. So I'm just watching tons and tons of conference talks and the good stories I'm like, oh, I wonder if that person would be willing to share it on the podcast.
So this is how I got Jason street on. Cause Jason gave him. Uh, you know, talk at Def con and he was like, Hey, you already gave that talk. You want to tell it to me? And he's like, yeah. So, um, you know, I [00:15:00] found a lot of people just because I was familiar with who's talking on stage and stuff. Um, but then I, I set some Google alerts.
So like hacker sentenced, if that shows up in a Google and Google, see, you know, database hacker sentence, they'll email me and say, Hey, there's this article? That's. Hacker grilled hacker, suicide, hacker arrested. Like all these things are, are interesting to me, biggest tack of all, you know, like if there's anything like that, um, hack that reads like a movie script, like these are all some Google alerts I have.
So hacker sentenced means, whoa, now we know the end of the story. Right. We can go backwards and say, hackers arrested in hacker was, did this to this company. And this company suffered this kind of breach or whatever. So now we know like the entire story and that's my favorite. So. I I see that signal hacker arrested.
I know I've got an entire story there, if that's an interesting story. Um, and then, uh, today I've kind of grown to the point where people are bringing me stories and they're [00:16:00] like coming out of prison. Like, I don't know who you are, but people are telling me, I need to bring you my story. So one.
Bella: How do you go about like, especially in the case of sort of, you know, either a headline or a conference talk? I think podcasting, at least as, as a person who listens to a lot of podcasts, consumes a lot of podcasts. It's a S it's a very different format than a conference talk, especially. Um, and, and even like earlier, you talked about kind of telling a broader story, going more into background, presenting something.
I think a lot more as a story than sometimes how we hear topics presented at a conference. How do you go about taking something that might be traditionally presented at a conference and turning it into a story for a podcast?
Jack: I feel like sometimes. Are people who are giving conference talks that aren't good storytellers, they're technical walks or geeks or [00:17:00] whatever. And they're just like, oh, well, let me tell you about all the packets I found. And it's like, nobody cares about the packets. Tell us like, you know,
Jeremiah: What's the process.
Jack: Yeah. So, I mean, for that particular venue, it probably makes sense.
You know, people are really in the weeds and they want to hear about what the hap, what the packet, what was in the packets. But, um, you know, I think if we stand back and we can, we can really look at like, well, what does this mean, geopolitically? What does this mean? Uh, you know, as far as what our country is doing or what, um, we need to do as defenders and all these kinds of things in. I maybe I have that skill, which is how to craft the story into an exciting way. And so even if, even if I get a really boring, um, Person that I interview, I can still find the stuff in there. That's interesting to craft it into the story. And in my show, I, I do a lot of, um, narration and editing and stuff.
So I can, I can kind of weave that together. And, uh, yeah, I mean, I [00:18:00] think it's just reformatting it to a way that's more exciting and more interesting to, to listen.
Jeremiah: In the process of, um, choosing the stories and reformatting it and trying to figure out. Where you want to go. Is there a particular structure or format that you follow to sort of get it there or is it just, um, how it feels to you in the moment?
Jack: Yeah, definitely. I'm looking for choice in turns. So I like to start a story out in a direction. Right. So our direction is we're trying to secure the network. Great. But then it's a turn. Oh, whoops. There was something we missed. Okay. Now. Well, I hope nobody saw it. Oh boy. There's someone in the network. Um, okay.
So now you're in this kind of situation of what, what do I do? Right. So you, you end up, I really liked these things, which with. Now you've got to solve it. So now you've got this new direction. Okay. We've got to solve this problem. We've got a, uh, an intruder in the network [00:19:00] and you think it's just a linear path to let's get them out, but then there may be another twist like, oh, actually it's not an outsider.
It's an insider. And there someone inside is stealing this stuff. And so now there's a new twist. And so I love this kind of stuff where. You think you're going in one direction and then we end up in totally different spot. And those are the stories that I just love, especially if there's two or three major ones in the story that you would never in a million years.
Think of, even if you're a fiction writer yet this, these are true stories happening. Uh, yeah. I mean, that's, that's the stuff I love.
Bella: Are you when you're finding stories, are you like specifically looking for stories that have twists or have you like gone into recording episodes before and been totally surprised by the twists that like you experience while you're doing interviews or writing the story?
Jack: Most of the stories that I researched really thoroughly before I get going with the interview. But there are a few that I'm just like, I don't know. What's your story. [00:20:00] What? Go ahead and tell me and I'm oh wow. There's something here I'm actually going to listen.
Jeremiah: And speak.
Jack: Yeah. And, uh, yeah. For me. I really like to know the edges of the story.
Like where does it end? Because there's some times where I'm listening to story and I'm like, oh, this is getting so good. This is so good. How does it go? And we're like five minutes in and they're like, oh no, that was it. That was, that was the whole thing. So this is okay. Let me see if I can back up and find something in here. Like it, you just went and got good. That's when it ended, this is not working. So there, yeah, I mean, not you've got. Yeah, I've got to have these payoff feelings and, you know, there's other stories where I interviewed some criminals. And in that, those ones I'm typically looking for, um, justice. I don't, I don't like, you know, airing his story where this criminal got away with a million dollars and like, look at me and I'm like, well, there's nothing to happen to, you know, you just got, you just[00:21:00]
Jeremiah: just got a million bucks. Huh?
Jack: Yeah. So I shy away from those and I say, okay, yeah. Did you get a ride? Like when, usually when somebody messages me with that weird, you know, hacker ish, avatar with a weird name, uh, you know, that's all. I don't know, just really obscure. Uh, I got a story for you I've I robbed this thing. Okay. Well, show me your criminal record showing me it's telling me that indictment and oh yeah, here it is.
Now I know the indictments there. Okay. We've got, we've got to justice arc, so they did this horrible stuff, but then they got, um, you know, hit.
Jeremiah: Just out of curiosity, we've been kind of discussing a lot about the episodes. Um, up to this point, you've released around 116 episodes, I believe. Is that correct?
Jack: Yeah, well, 10 more on Patrion. So
Jeremiah: yeah. Out of, out of those, um, do you have any that kind of just stick in your head as [00:22:00] like, these are my favorite.
Jack: yeah, I really like the. I really liked the X-Box underground one because it was it's one of those episodes that's really is like, uh, what is in my head as a creative thing that I want to get out there is never really like, there, there's always this gap between how man, okay, this is what I made this.
Isn't quite how I envisioned it, but I'll just go with it because I got another episode to get going, but this X-Box underground one was really yet, right. I had multiple voices in there. The story was. W it was more unbelievable than you can really imagine. And, uh, it just all came together. Like when you have multiple voices and you're, and I interviewed everyone individually, I didn't interview them together.
Right. So then I'm like editing it. So that one voice is talking right after the other. Right. And it's not me. I don't have to weave it together. They're like, yeah. And then Dylan did this. Yeah. Oh. And then it's not the disc or whatever the case is. Right. And so they can bounce off [00:23:00] each other. And that just makes the.
It's just so much better. And I kind of shortcutted a lot of times and I just interview like one person and get the tape and go because I'm on a deadline here. But that was when I was like, I'm going to spend four months on this. And I did. And the, the, it was just, it was a hard story to understand, to begin with.
Like I had wrote all these pages of notes and timelines and people, and everyone in this story has like three names. Real name and then they have their online name, but then they have the name that everyone's calling them in this circle. Cause there's like an innocent of like, well, yeah, that's this person.
And I'm like, who are you talking about?
Jeremiah: That's that's interesting. So just, um, is there, is there a little piece that you could give of that particular episode?
Jack: Yeah, this is the one where these, uh, hacking group got wanting to get into video game companies and steal the source code so they could play the video games. Pre-release that was their main motivation. [00:24:00] And what they did on this spree is just unbelievable. And it's so crazy that multiple people in Hollywood have reached out to try to get me to like, make a movie on it or something.
Bella: Do you ever, like, I know you mentioned that kind of pressure of having a deadline and having to constantly, you know, move on to the next thing. Um, and some something that I found like in my personal life, and also just talking to other people who are, who, you know, pursue different kinds of creative endeavors and like content creation in general.
Sometimes, I feel like that pressure [00:27:00] of, you know, the content grind, always having to put out the next thing, um, and, and having a deadline, it can be sort of like, it can stifle creativity. It can make you kind of dislike the things that you were once passionate about not to be too negative, but have you ever felt yourself get into kind of maybe.
Like have that feeling of like, oh, I, I don't, I don't want to talk about cybersecurity this week. Like I'm tired of this topic. Have you ever been in that mindset?
Jack: Yeah. I mean, back to where I was working as a security engineer, I came on board, you know, I was, I was, I got that CCNA. And then I quickly got my CCNP, which has four tests. I mean, that was like six months of just hardcore fast track study to get this done. And, uh, when I got a security engineer position, my boss then told me, like, I see you just go and so fast.
Like you, there is no slowing you down. But I'm afraid you're going to burn out at some point. I eventually, after 10 years I got burnt out and I was like, so burnt out that when I quit that and went to podcast, I needed like a two month break of just like, don't show me any, don't give me any work for two months. Cause I need to just let this go. And uh, yeah, I mean this, this kind of stuff has hit me before.
And now I, you said I started a podcast in 2017. I don't even [00:29:00] remember. Um, that's four years. Right. And so, yeah, now I'm feeling tired. I think that's the best way to describe it. Where every episode is a mountain that I need to climb. And it's about 60,000 words in every episode that I have to write and research and fact check and go through all the steps and it's like a million things.
Um, so yeah, it's just more, like more tired than anything. And I, and. Um, I love doing it. It's so rewarding, but then there's these other things that I really want to try and it's like, ah, if I could just take a break from this and work on this other stuff that I'm passionate about and excited about, I would be fine.
But even when I do, like, I'm like, oh, on the weekend, I won't do any podcasting. That's the track. And so even on the weekend I sit down and I'm just tired. Ah, there's still a lot of writing I have to do here. And, uh, this
Jeremiah: When did, when did you realize that you could sort of turn [00:30:00] this into sort of a full-time career for yourself?
Jack: Uh, so about three months into it is when I quit my job. And then I gave myself a, like a three or four months. Um, Like space of like, as a, see if you can make some money in this three and three months of just focus on this full-time and if by the end of that, if you're making like even ramen noodle kind of living to get through it, like you've proved yourself, you can make some money on this, you just need to, you know, you scale it up and everything will work.
And if not go back and find a job. So, uh, I, yeah, at the end of a. We're on you're on six months of, of starting. It is when I started getting my first income. And it was, I think it was, um, some sponsors that I had ads in the show and stuff, but, uh, I did actually go around and start applying. I was a little bit concerned that I wasn't going to make it and I'd have to get a new job.
So yeah, I was just barely got through that. And it's been great [00:31:00] since, uh, as in the show and Patrion, uh, really make it like I can do it.
Bella: And I know you mentioned like the, you know, putting on a podcast, especially the type of show that, that you're creating is so much work. There's the writing, the show, the interviews, all this stuff that goes into it. When you, what was it like when you started versus now, do you have a team of people working with you, um, who, who supports you with, with all of the different work that goes into the, into the show?
Jack: When I first, uh, the first 40 episodes were just 100% by me and I would get some advice from some other people, but not really like anyone working on it. Um, so yeah, it's just all the writing research interviews, everything was just 100%, even the artwork stuff was done. Uh, and then. And then by around 40 episodes, I had some cash coming in to say, okay, I can finally hire like a sound engineer and they can put the music on there.
And I don't have to worry about that [00:32:00] or an editor or something so that when I near right, I say a lot of things twice or stutter or something and they can fix that. Um, so yeah, it was somewhere around there. And now today I have a writer, a researcher, a, uh, two sound designers. Producers that I've tried out, um, the artists and so many more that doesn't even count the lawyers.
Jeremiah: That's interesting.
Bella: What do you think is like, so you know, all the different jobs that go into creating a podcast, like we just talked about, what do you think is maybe your. Do you have like a favorite and or least favorite component of podcasting either that you have to do now, or that you did when you first started this show?
Um, you know, like any of the odd jobs that like you did or didn't like,
Jack: I mean, the best part of it is when. Get to interact with [00:33:00] the fans and they send me messages. And I like the stuff that they say that they learned from it and stuff. It's just so phenomenon phenomenal. It's like, oh, I quit my job as a mechanic to go pursued cybersecurity career. And I just finished my, uh, interview and they hired me and I'm like, oh my gosh, that's amazing that you switched careers.
Uh, and, uh, Yeah. I mean, it's just like a lot of wild stories of how I've influenced people to do different things in their life. And yeah, that's definitely the most rewarding and fulfilling part of it. Um, listening to it when it's all done is the second most rewarding, like, oh yeah. I remember I made the show for me so I can listen to this.
And so, yeah, let's check it out. And even though I had. Uh, like building it for like a month before that I still can kind of clean my, my memory of it and say, what does this sound like? Just with fresh ears. And, um, I'm good at that. Um, so I, I like just listening to it and how it unfolds and getting into it.
Jeremiah: Combining the podcasting with the blogging that you talked about earlier. I know you've given a lot of recommendations to, um, individuals through your blog and in person on how to build successful podcasts. And what are some of the big mistakes that people make when starting out? Um, I was wondering if you could share some of those insights for those that might be listening to our.
Jack: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I have a blog@lyme.link. That's the whole website and I just I'm on Reddit a lot in the podcast or community. And I just, uh, see people ask [00:35:00] like the same questions a lot. So I just started blogging to like answer it once and for all, but like there's some marketing tips there and some.
Uh, how to make a good show, I think is probably a question that people gloss over a lot where you want to make something that people are going to miss you when you're gone. Even if you have like, , don't think about like how big of an audience you have is just, are you providing like a lot of value to your current audience, even if it's five people so that if your show were to stop, they'd be like, no, no, no, don't stop.
You're my favorite. And I think if you can get into that space, Just being such a value to your listeners, then that is going to spread so well that they're going to be your little marketers for you. They're going to spread the show for you. And when you go to market it, it's going to, it's going to stick so much. Because there's certain people that just love it and it doesn't need to be, uh, you know, something that everyone loves. You need to find the [00:36:00] right person in your head of who would love this show and just deliver it to them in, in, in just a great way. Um, and so that, that could be being, uh, like scaling up at it.
There is a skill in this. You don't grab a guitar and then say, Hey, how do I make money? And as a musician, You really say, okay, I've got a passion and playing music and I love just hearing how it works and learning all these new things and scaling up with it. And I think there's something like that in podcasts where there's practice, there's learning, uh, you know how to find the right guests.
There's learning how to tell a good story, how to ask good questions. Um, and I think every podcast is good. Good at storytelling because that's what keeps us on the edge of our seats. That's what makes us want to listen to the second half of the show. Right? There's all these things that you don't think about it as, even as an interview or like how has storytelling work here, but you can weave it in there in certain ways to make it, um, make it make peoples on the edge of their seats [00:37:00] still.
So yeah, I mean, those are some things that come to mind.
Bella: How do you think, you know, when you have, you know, either a podcast idea, a show idea, a specific story, how do you know, like what would you assess an idea on to determine whether or not it's worth pursuing?
Jack: Yeah. I think that idea itself is rarely the thing. And it's more of the execution. There's so many great ideas out there that have just absolutely fallen on their face with actually making it work. Like there was this one. Art heist podcast. And I love art HighSpot chasm
Bella: Yeah.
Jack: and they absolutely did horrible at it. And I was so mad. It was the only time I actually left leaving a view on, on iTunes and stuff like this is, these people should not be podcasting. Like how did you mess up so bad that I love this content and I still hated the show. Right?
Bella: so then what, what are the [00:38:00] pitfalls to avoid? Like, how do you, like, what do you have to, if you have this great idea, you're like, oh yeah, I'm going to make a show about this. This is an amazing idea, but I have to execute it. Well, what are the things that you have to watch out
Jeremiah: Or at least halfway decent. Right.
Jack: I feel like a lot of people aren't listening to their own show. And so they don't go back and kind of edit themselves and say, okay, here's how I could do better. I want, I want my goal for a long time. Well, I'd probably for the first hundred episodes was how could I make this next episode better than the last and better than the last one, better than the last one.
So in order to do that, you have to self-reflect you have to, you have to listen to it and say, Ooh, I wish I wish I had. This person saying this on tape instead. And so now you learn, these are the things that we need to ask to get the really good stuff next time, or, you know, whatever. And so self editing I think is, is really good.
Getting, getting, um, some feedback from some people that. Would be [00:39:00] helpful to you, right? So a lot of people just think, oh, I'm Picasso, I'm Michael Angelo. I'm just going to whip it up and send it out. And you, you just do whatever. And I'm like, no, no, no. I'm like the biggest editor ever, like whip it up, send it out.
Now, give it back to me. Let me do five minutes. And it's still not to where I like, but it's going to just be good enough because next episode, I'm going to make it better and better and better. So you just need this sort of real critical lens of your own thing. It's it's okay. If your baby's ugly, it's going to get more beautiful as it grows.
Jeremiah: just thinking about, and listening to some of the dark net diaries podcasts that you've done in my mind, obviously, there's, [00:40:00] there's an image that's created and developed as I'm walking through your story. I could really get into, like, I could really dig seeing that, like in a Netflix series almost have, have you thought about doing something like.
Jack: I get, I get called all the time from Hollywood producers. And here's the problem. Um, most of this content that you hear on my show, it's just someone sitting at a computer typing. So boring visually, it's just the worst. Like you don't, you're not going to ever be interested in someone just sitting there typing, and maybe you could see a screen pop up and say, oh yeah, look at that.
It is actually. Yeah, it's still not going to land. So, and, and, and so the next thing we can do is, well, we can sit someone down [00:41:00] and have them look in the camera and tell their story right. Similar to how I'm doing it. It's just, we look there and I'm like, that's still boring. That's just as good as a podcast and seeing them talk is not going to make any difference to me than hearing them talk. I don't find it. I'm missing it. And I mean, are you going to, are you going to, I don't know. So what I, what I struggle with is finding the right director and the right crew to say, oh, we, this is how we want to do it. We want to have reenactments of hits and I'm, uh, and I, and sometimes I get someone say that and I say, okay, show me.
How you going to show a text message on the screen or, or a discord chat message or a telegram chat message. What does it look like visually? And sometimes it gets stuck on that, like, oh, uh, well, I guess we'll just write the words on this. I'm like what? What's, what's a show that's like, they nailed it for you.
Cause I mean, these are the people who are in the film industry. They would know these shows. [00:42:00] Right. And so sometimes they struggle with even just finding like, oh yeah, the way these text messages showed up on this show was just brilliant. And we want to do it just like that. Like the it's just really difficult to bridge this, this thing.
And I think someone, some can do it. I mean, Mr. Robot and yeah. Um, and there's some other shows that do well. Uh, but yeah, it's, it's just one of these things that I haven't found the right crew. Now I do have an agent while I'm working with William Morris. And, uh, they're like, just tell us when, just tell us when you want to shop, we can shop around and we can find you the crew.
We have the connections. Just, just tell us what you want to do.
Jack: I need to work on it. I just can't seem to get there.
Bella: Yeah. Something that I think about a lot though, is that like, I think a lot of people like, like, you know, we always have this conversation, right. When there's a really good book, a really interesting story. There are so many folks that are like, okay, but now give it to me in movie format. And I think that a lot of people.
Connect best with a story when there's a visual element, maybe because they find it most exciting, something like that. And I, I, I kind of agree. Like I personally, particularly with cybersecurity and computer stuff, I connect way better [00:45:00] with audio or even sometimes written because the visuals don't hit, but why.
Like how, how, like, I think your podcast is such a great job of putting us in the story. Like when you're listening, you're there, you're there in the interview. You're, you're feeling all of it happened. You understand what's going on. How, why do you think it is that you're able to do that in audio? Like why does audio work for telling a computer hacking story?
When sometimes text on a screen or a movie doesn't work.
Jack: I think it's theater of the mind. You picture the scene in your head and you create this, this whole universe in your head of what this person looks like, what their home computer station looks like, all these things that is beautiful. It's wonderful that you can create this world and you imagine how they're typing and what it's looking like and how they dress and what, what is like their home life or whatever the case is.
You're just, you have this own. Universe that you're creating it in and that's, that's perfect. I can't do better than that. Right. [00:46:00] It's it's, it's like, there's the, there's the book that you could just, um, read, I suppose. And you, your, your whole mind is expanded. You don't hear things, you don't smell things.
You don't see things, you just read the words and then that's, you're, you're the theater of the mind is the biggest there. And when you hear podcasts, And now you're you're you're narrow. You're you go real narrow on the noise. You hear? The person sounds like. And so you don't have to be any creative with the noise.
You, you hear how they're, how they talk and how they sound. And then when you see something on the screen, now you're your theater of the mind goes real small because you can see and hear exactly what's going on and you don't have to come up with any sort of creativeness on your own. You don't have to imagine how anything works.
You see everything and you hear, hear everything. So there's just like different elements due to media. Can play in this space and that's, I feel like I'm good at this podcast thing. I'm not good at the written word. I'm not good at the [00:47:00] visual thing, but I'm good at this audio only.
Jeremiah: Just thinking about, um, the theater of the mind when you are asking questions for your users and you're designing the story around it. Um, I guess how much goes into thinking about the listener on the other side and what kind of image is being portrayed to them. And then on top of that, I suspect there's a little bit of, um, intentional manipulation as well to build suspense
Jack: Oh,
Jeremiah: the story.
Jack: Yeah. A couple of times there's, you know, the person is telling me the big suspenseful moment and I'm just like, w well, let's cut that part of the audio and just open it up like a half second so that they, they say, and then, and then there's a pause. Okay. And then the not the door came. [00:48:00] Okay. That sounds better.
So yeah, I do have this intention. Manipulation, but, um, yeah, I mean, I, I, for a while I had a picture of who the person was that I'm telling this podcast story to, right. It wasn't like I have this whole audience. So it was like, it was actually a friend of mine and I was like, Um, I, I, I don't know. I might've even actually like printed out a picture of her and like put it in front of me.
And like, as I was telling the story, I was just talking to her. Right. So I picture in my head, how much tech does she know? How much does she need explained? And she was, she doesn't work in it, but she was someone who understands tech. Cause she works with tech all day. Right? Like there's these people who. Right. A lot. They've got to use word processor, like an email and all this. Like, they're fine. Like everyone's on tech. Everyone understands tech these days. We're all tech literate. And I hate when people are like, I don't know anything about tech. I'm like, you have so much more because even my father listens to the show and understands [00:49:00] everything.
And he's like the most fossil of a person I've ever met. Everyone, like everyone really into it. These everyone gets tech. So yeah. I mean, I, I kind of. I picked a person and then that's kind of evolved over time. I'm like, wait, I kind of like talking to this person, I'm going to talk to this person now. So I've just kind of picked one person in my head and sometimes they even pick up the phone and act like I'm telling them the story to get that tone out a little bit better of like, this is just a me telling you this story and Hey, are you there yet?
Okay. You got a minute. I want to tell you this story. And then I hit record and then let go in. Right? So it puts me in this mindset.
Bella: So podcasting, I feel like has really, it's been around for a little while. It's evolved a lot. And I think especially now is so popular. I, I mean, I listened to an absurd quantity of different podcasts. There's so many different podcasting platforms. It's it's [00:50:00] really big right now. Do you think
Jeremiah: of like 700,000 of them, which is crazy.
Bella: Yeah, everybody's got a podcast. Um, do you think that we are in, like, do you think that we have reached peak podcast,
Jack: Is this possible it's like, have you ever heard the term unique music
Bella: right? Yeah.
Jack: books, movies, and this is this the peak news.
Bella: Yeah. is podcasting just going to be forever evolving? It's just like a staple of our culture now.
Jack: I definitely think it's a stable of the culture. That's interesting. I didn't think about that before, but yeah, it does seem to be part of it. And uh, I mean, we D we need. We need news, right? And that's, every day is going to be more news. We need pop culture, you know, information gossip. We need the latest on this and that, and that's just always going to be new.
So, I mean, even like sports, just every sports team could have its own [00:51:00] podcast. Of course, probably there's 20. The sports team, people are just fanatics about this stuff and they want to hear everything about it. And it's just so much to learn in with podcast too. So if you want to get into crypto, you can learn so much from crypto or investing or how's market or computers.
Like you can just pick any sort of topic and you can get into it. And it's really fun that there's this flood of information there. Um, like I think some of the best shows are going to last the longest, cause they're going to be the most, um, concise or, or deliver the stuff to the audience in the best way that doesn't waste the audience time or, um, disrespects them in some way. But yeah, I think it's, I think it's gonna continue to grow and we'll continue to see lots of new shows going forward. I'm excited to see what the next big thing.
Jeremiah: I would, I would always say or also say. You know, almost, do you hear peak theater, right? Because [00:52:00] you said such a great thing a minute ago, which is the theater of the mind. And I think that just sort of, as soon as I heard that it just rang the bell, you know what I mean? Like it's very much theater rebel and when I, or the theater of the mind, and when I listened to a podcast, it throws me into my own mind made universe.
And I don't think that I would personally ever stop listening to podcasts even if, or even though it's sort of there's saturation. Right. Because I think that there's so much that I'm interested in as an individual, that I could still tap into anything that's out there. And it still brings about that. Um, book ask creativity in my mind.
Jack: Yeah, it's really fun. It's um, I'm having a blast listening to podcasts.
Bella: I'll just a bunch of podcast fans over here. I feel like podcasts are the, you know, when you, um, go to a party, maybe this is just me. You go to a [00:53:00] party and you don't know how to like best interact with someone. So you just like find someone who has an interest and then you learn everything you can about that interest.
Podcasts are just that, but for the world,
Jack: Yeah. Yeah. I think that actually has helped me. Get peoples get some interesting things out of people by being a podcaster. Cause that's what I'm trying to find as I'm interviewing someone. So I might as well try it at a party.
Bella: Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremiah: 100%.
Bella: That's how I make friends. I don't know if I, it works for me. So, so we have one last final, uh, non-serious question for you, um, that we ask this at the end of every show for all of our guests and answer with as much or as little detail as you'd like, um, What is something that we wouldn't know about you just from looking at like your LinkedIn profile, your online bios, maybe listening to your podcast, like something that, you know, a secret, hidden gem of information.
Jack: I'm not sure how much I want to [00:54:00] reveal here.
Bella: Totally fair.
Jack: Um, I'm not, I feel like, I feel like I look at the world differently than everyone else, but then as soon as I say that, I'm like, of course, everyone looks at the world differently than everyone else, but yeah. I just feel. When I see like bubbles popping up all over, like the fervor of social media and stuff, and everyone's getting excited about this and that.
And just like, hold on. Where, where, where where's the source of this excitement coming from? And it's like, oh, well this one person tweeted this and I read that tweet and I'm like, I don't see it at all. Like what you're seeing. And now there's like, there's huge, like uproar about this. And so, um, I don't know how to explain it, but I, I just feel like.
I don't think we're looking at the same thing as everyone else.
Jeremiah: I kind of get that right. Because whenever we all see the world differently, we all see color differently. [00:55:00] We all have different perspectives and perceptions that are just different. And I think that's what this is going to sound very cliche. That's what makes us each special in our own way. Um, and, and to that perspective, I could totally see how that is your unique superpower.
Jack: Yeah, but like I'm, I'm looking to redesign my office now. And when I look at all these ideas, 1000 out of 1000 of them are the worst ideas I've ever seen. 100% of them. And then I'm like, why is the none of this resonating with what I looked at fat men's fashion. I'm just like, none of this resonates with top 40 music.
None of this is good
Bella: Yeah,
Jack: food at the buffet. I
Jeremiah: listen, I don't blame you. The buffet is awful.
Jack: Who's it for like, why am I like what's going on?
Bella: yeah.
Jeremiah: You brought me to this party.[00:56:00]
Bella: Oh yeah.
Jack: yeah. And I don't know if that's like a superpower I have, and that's why I'm able to tell stories in the way I do. Cause I have this different view of everything or, uh, or if I'm just imagining that I'm special or something.
Jeremiah: I think it's, I think it's a superpower man. I think you've got it. And I think it's unique. And so keep doing it for sure.
Bella: yeah,
Jeremiah: Jack, thank you so much for coming on the show. I know. I appreciate it.
Bella: yeah. This was great. Thank you so much for talking with us.
Jack: Yeah. I had a lot of fun. Thanks for having me.