Defense Digital Service Acting Director Katie Olson heads up a team of about 80 technologists working on some of the toughest challenges facing the U.S. Department of Defense. Since Katie started leading the team, often called the Pentagon’s “SWAT team of nerds," it has increasingly focused on the threat from drones, cybersecurity risks in space and the consequences of climate change. In this episode, Katie talks about this cutting-edge work, how DDS helped the Pentagon reduce the impact of COVID-19 and what big issues her team will tackle next.
Defense Digital Service Acting Director Katie Olson heads up a team of about 80 technologists working on some of the toughest challenges facing the U.S. Department of Defense. Since Katie started leading the team, often called the Pentagon’s “SWAT team of nerds," it has increasingly focused on the threat from drones, cybersecurity risks in space and the consequences of climate change. In this episode, Katie talks about this cutting-edge work, how DDS helped the Pentagon reduce the impact of COVID-19 and what big issues her team will tackle next.
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Why you should listen:
* Learn about some of the most cutting-edge work going on inside the Pentagon.
* Better understand emerging threats such as drones and risks associated with climate change.
* Hear how DDS helped the military rapidly deploy technology to reduce the spread of COVID-19.
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Key Quotes:
* "What I've seen shifting in my time here is making security researchers the good guys."
* “Facilitated by the pandemic, we are seeing just increased awareness and attention to cybersecurity.”
* “It would be better for us to check our defenses first before we have some kind of major breach.”
* “For those white hat hackers who want to contribute to national security, [there’s] a huge opportunity.”
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Related Links:
https://www.synack.com/blog/3-years-of-hack-the-pentagon/
https://www.usds.gov/projects/hack-the-pentagon
00:00:00] Jeremiah Roe: Hey, Katie, how are you?
[00:00:03] Katie Olson: I'm doing good. how are you?
[00:00:05] Jeremiah Roe: thanks so much for coming to the.
[00:00:06] Katie Olson: thanks for having me.
[00:00:08] Bella DeShantz: Yeah, we're really looking forward to, to getting to chat with you today. So let's jump right into it. You are the acting director of the us defense digital service. Can you tell us what that is and how it fits into the rest of the defense?
[00:00:19] Katie Olson: Sure DDS is a team of about 80 highly qualified or highly technical. We are mostly from the private sector. Although we do have some people who come to us from careers in government, in the military as well. Typically the profile is what you would see on a software development team. So designers, product managers, engineers, and data scientists, the goal of DDS is to search for the department when there's a crisis.
And when the work is done, we find long-term owners for the products and services that we've.
[00:00:49] Bella DeShantz: Maybe you can't answer this question and that's okay. But I'm like, what would qualify as a crisis?
[00:00:55] Katie Olson: We have seen over the past two years and the two and a half years since I've been here, [00:01:00] it's felt like crisis after crisis?
Um, so the, the first.
[00:01:04] Jeremiah Roe: Can imagine why.
[00:01:05] Katie Olson: Right, right. You know, there's been a couple of what I would call technology crisis crises within the department where we sort of realized there's a missing technology gap.
And then of course, the crises that we've been experiencing on a national and global level. So for example, during the pandemic, the Navy reached out to DDS because they had sailors aboard. Without enough doctors or masks, and we're very far away from a vaccine. So they wanted a solution for triaging cases.
So we built an app for them in about 48 hours that they is still in use by both the Navy and the air force. Um, and at one point was supporting I think three dozen bases and ships, uh, and people logged their symptoms and it would tell the, uh, the service. To quarantine people who had a COVID exposure. So we were able to keep the numbers of cases down, especially in tight quarters, [00:02:00] somewhere like a ship.
Another example from that. During operation warp speed. We partnered with the national security agency on this or cybersecurity mission around developing the vaccine. So those are examples of, of crises where DDS was in place as a, as a highly qualified team of experts to be able to search quickly and develop solutions that weren't otherwise readily.
[00:02:24] Bella DeShantz: That's wild. I can't imagine when you said developed an app in 48 hours, I feel like that would be the most intense 48 hours, but what is it like, and I'm just thinking about this. Like, what is it like after you finish one thing before he would get the next crisis? What is that in between.
[00:02:40] Katie Olson: In the in-between period there, I would say we. Turn our attention to more slow burning fires if you will. So for example, a big portion of our portfolio right now is counter UAS. So countering small drones, UABs, and that's a crisis that was identified initially [00:03:00] by cemetery. When he was the secretary of defense and we absorbed a team in early 20, 20.
So right before the pandemic, which is, you know, great, great time to, uh, to onboard tons of people going into a, a sort of work from home situation. But, um, we, we onboarded this team that allowed us to focus on how. Since display and defeat drones that are both CONUS and an Okonomiyaki bases around the world.
So in the in-between time, we do have a study portfolio, things like that are if not impacting us currently going to impact us, um, at a, at a pretty large.
[00:03:37] Bella DeShantz: Can you tell us about the threat of drones?
[00:03:40] Katie Olson: The threat really is, is you have these, you know, unmanned aerial devices where you can be, you know, the is obviously very far away from, um, from the device and there's always the risk of, of what the drone might try. Bite be caring. For example, increasingly we're seeing changes in protocols and speed and [00:04:00] direction and their range.
You know, how far from the operator they have to be. So what we're trying to do is, as DDS is continuously improve the sensing capability if before where the drone is, but also create a good user experience, frankly, around. Um, around what the user is seeing, you know, if they're doing it for force protection or base protection so that the user can see what is coming and choose through the adequate defeat Mexican.
[00:04:27] Jeremiah Roe: I just kind of want to back up a minute because, because that's, that's, that's also a little bit tied to hack the Pentagon. The hack, the Pentagon program. I was wondering if you could speak a little bit more to that for the.
[00:04:40] Katie Olson: Sure. So hack the Pentagon is probably DDS. I think it's DDS is original. It's an original program. The first thing that we stood up when we became a team in 20 15, 20 16. So hack the Pentagon is a, it was at the time, the first federal bug bounty program. [00:05:00] Uh, now I think we, we, there's pretty common acceptance, uh, in the federal space and at the state and city level as well around, um, conducting intentional cybersecurity assessments, having outside resources.
Look at public facing assets, such as websites, but at the time it was a very novel thing to do, especially, you know, sensitive place like the. department of defense to intentionally expose assets, to outside researchers, to, you know, to performance cybersecurity.
[00:05:31] Jeremiah Roe: So I've been following DDS for quite some time. I think that they do some fantastic work and in following DDS and a lot of these. That have that have taken place going forward. How have you seen, um, things change from inside the Pentagon to some of the defense branches from the air force to DARPA? How has that benefited across the board for you?
All the collaboration between the branches and for the general.
[00:05:58] Katie Olson: We've worked with army air [00:06:00] force and a number of organization. Uh, within the DOD and we've run about 30 bug bounties over the, you know, the span of the last five years or so, and discovered over 2000 vulnerabilities ranging from low to, to critical. So from a perspective of what we've done within the department, I think we've, we've really created, um, an awareness of, of huge blind spots.
So that's sort of one. The second piece. And we're seeing listening, you know, especially with an emission, like operation warp speed, we've had the opportunity to collaborate with other federal agencies, such as DHS and assisted team. So we've been able to, especially operational RSP is actually a great example of where we did bug bounties, you know, again in sort of service of creating a safe vaccine.
So I think in addition to. Bringing better security within the department. We've also taught other agencies how to do the same thing with, with their assets. Um, you know, and, and to your cheer question about what have I sort of seen [00:07:00] change within the department? So I've, I've been here about two and a half years.
And even in that, the span of that time, you know, however short I've, I've seen a number of really important changes. I do think that. Increasingly probably honestly facilitated by the, the pandemic we are seeing, uh, the just increased. Awareness and attention to cybersecurity, which is, which is great. Um, you know, one of the things that we did and, you know, early in my tenure is expand the VDP program, the vulnerability disclosure program, which basically allows anyone who sees a vulnerability on a DOD public facing systems and maybe a website, for example, to report it without any fear of retrofit.
So that's, that's huge, um, that, you know, a hacker would be able to come forward with something they found and not be penalized for what they might be trying to do or trying to gain access to. So I think, I think we're seeing a greater acceptance and even a partnership with the security researcher community that [00:08:00] we want to work together to make our assets.
[00:08:02] Bella DeShantz: And how does that like, relationship that partnership and that different culture, how does that help improve security? For y'all, but also I think for the entire field,
[00:08:13] Katie Olson: So I think there's a community of best. There's sort of a community of interest and best practices that are. Springing up, uh, you know, again, we have sort of operation work speed and the pandemic to, to think, and really the election as well to thank for sort of accelerating those partnerships with the election.
For example, again, we worked with CYSA to build a true a tool called. Speed, which scans for sort of vulnerable does sort of automatic, um, scanning for vulnerabilities within, uh, within various systems. And that was critical for, for their use during the election. And then, you know, operation warp speed.
There was the BDP program. We also, um, have been partnering with them as well and things like protective DNS. So what we're, what we're sort of [00:09:00] doing is. Even if DDS or DOD is not the, the ones originating the pilot. Although often we are as a community, uh, cyber security experts across the federal agent, federal government.
We are working together to build a body of best practices that whether it's internal or with the companies we work with, uh, we can increasingly adopt policy around to, you know, to ensure that we continue to utilize these best practice.
[00:09:29] Jeremiah Roe: I come from a little bit of the DOD space myself. I spent some time in the Marine Corps. And so I understand how things can be difficult
[00:09:37] Katie Olson: Yeah.
[00:09:38] Jeremiah Roe: times. Um, and. And so with, with that in mind, especially when touching on something so sensitive as potentially identifying things that can be exploited, that happened to maybe touch on national security matters and maybe very [00:10:00] secretive matters. Um, what kind of culture shift are you seeing with the help of DDS pushing the Pentagon and department of defense forward in these, in these initial.
[00:10:11] Katie Olson: It is a, it is a really delicate area, but what I've seen shifting in, in my, in my time here. Yeah. Making, you know, again, to making security researchers, the good guys that we're, we're hiring, we're hiring them and you see, you know, expanded, expanded CSO offices and you see know teams like DDS. You know, we had one security researcher and now we have several on the team.
Um, and we're, uh, we even have some details from, from other organizations within DOD that want to come here and learn how to, how to do this work better. So I think the biggest shift is. The second concept that wouldn't, you, you know, it would be better for us to check our defenses first before we have some kind of major breach.
And certainly we've seen, you know, getting nationally and [00:11:00] globally a number of breaches throughout the past year that have been, you know, quite extreme. You look at something like solar winds, for example. And I think that the idea is wouldn't you rather have those people working for you, you know, and helping to secure your perimeter before we have something at that scale.
[00:11:16] Bella DeShantz: I know you have a background in city planning and you worked for the city of Chicago for awhile. Uh, does that experience play into how you're thinking about your current job or cybersecurity?
[00:11:26] Katie Olson: Absolutely. So I worked, um, worked for the city of Chicago for about eight years or so for the city directly. Um, but then I also ran a public private partnership called the city tech collaborative, which was similar to DDS in the way that we partner. Government to bring. And in some cases develop the best commercial technology, pilot it with the city of Chicago, demonstrate effectiveness and then scale.
And the lessons from that have informed my time at DDS tremendously [00:12:00] starting. Good user design and good user experience. Many, many projects that we did in the city of Chicago, uh, would have gone a completely different direction. If we hadn't done what we call a DDS, a discovery sprint, where we embedded.
Users to understand What the problem actually was. We could be going down the completely wrong path or the completely wrong approach unless we embed with users. So there's that this of user design and experience piece of it, there's also this, you know, just the whole concept of piloting and the city or DOD doesn't need to rebuild something.
If it's a commercially available solution, conversely, we don't need to. By a commercially available solution. If it's a simple spreadsheet, if it's a simple something that could be solved with frankly, better talent within the department. So, you know, I think a lot of my experience in Chicago also informed the choices that we encourage DOD to make and that we at DVS [00:13:00] make around.
When do we build, when do we buy and when do we acquire.
[00:13:04] Bella DeShantz: What are some of the kind of cybersecurity specific things that either do come up or that could come up when you're working on a project for users? What's something that you would learn when you talk about users, that's specific to cybersecurity.
[00:13:18] Katie Olson: A good example is the work that we're about to in. In the climate space, climate is a priority of the deputy secretary and the secretary. And should it be something that we're all thinking about and what we've done in or discovered in our initial discovery, sprints that we've been doing in this space is that energy tracking and energy management is really being left to the individual base.
So, you know, we have bases obviously around the country, around the world and. They have individual energy managers that are working with a local utility to understand usage [00:14:00] and as well as to. Kind of govern the cybersecurity practices or measures. And that one is sort of concerning from the perspective that we don't have a complete picture of our energy usage as a department, and therefore makes it challenging to set real goals, to reduce our energy consumption and our reliance, which I would also argue as a, um, a reliance on energy is also a national security issue.
But then there's the, this also piece that. You know, if we're just treating it like a utility problem and not a cybersecurity.
problem, we're missing the boat and we're not, um, we're not bringing some of those best practices to bear at scale. If we're leaving it up to the individual base level to think about cyber and thinking about usage.
[00:14:48] Bella DeShantz: Def con this year, what was that like? What were you, what were you looking for? Their recruiting building support for programs, anything.
[00:14:54] Katie Olson: So I, so it was my first Def con experience because I joined the team [00:15:00] in 2019. And the first year I was in Afghanistan, working on a different project, the second year was virtual. So I participated virtually. So this is two years into my time in DVS. It was the first time I was able to be in person and I loved it.
I just felt like it was where engineering meets art and just some of the most creative people I've ever met, including people from my own team that, you know, I've. I dunno, you could do that. Um, should you be doing that? Um, so it was like very, it was very, very fun for me, um, to, uh, just to, to meet that whole community and to, yeah.
Just watch very creative, smart people kind of run wild with, with engineering and, um, and you know, the goal I think, is really to expose, you know, bringing it back to cyber secure. What that means from a cyber perspective, you know, if an engineer is able to hack into something, gain control of something, what does it say about, you know, some [00:16:00] of the public or private systems that we have.
[00:16:02] Jeremiah Roe: So I went to Def con this year, too. This is, I think my third or fourth time going. I remember the first time I went way back. You know, before there was a pandemic and it was mind boggling to me because it's so massive and so huge. And it's interesting. Like if you look at any of the, um, Def con culture sort of spread how it, how it started from its initial phases until where it's at today, it's overwhelming.
Massive now, and you can get so much out of it. It was just blown. My mind was just reeling with so many potential avenues and opportunities and, and things I just never thought of from, you know, a both hacking perspective. Like you said, policy perspective and really unique ways of thinking about new problems in the space across all industry.
[00:16:52] Katie Olson: Yeah, I'll be curious to see what they do next year and future years. I should say if there's, if the [00:17:00] risk of them ever goes away, because I, I think it is a community that has been. Pretty closed, um, from my understanding, but by having some sessions virtually there were participants from all over the world.
So I think even one of our, you know, we ran a couple of Hakka satellite programs in partnership with the air force. And I want to say that, you know, one of the winners was from South Africa or something and you know, that wouldn't have been able to attend otherwise. And so I'll be curious to see how the community evolves in this virtual in-person hybrid.
[00:17:34] Bella DeShantz: I have not been to. Maybe one year, not sure, but, um, I know a little bit about it. I know that at one time, feds were not really welcome at Def con. Um, and there's a well known game of spot the fed at CA at hacker conferences. Um, but do you think that that attitude has changed and that security researchers are now becoming more open and willing to work with the government on national security?
[00:17:57] Katie Olson: Uh, the hat hack, the fat or [00:18:00] spot the fed is funny to me because they feel like, you know, the joke in DC is like everyone is just always wearing their badge around and to, you know, for self. So I'm, I'm sure there's there, you know, that's a hard habit for people to break. I don't know how hard that game would be, but, um, but I, I think, you know, to your point about that, the willingness to work with government, I do think, and you think that's shifting, you know, we went two years in a row virtually, and then in person this year with.
Um, because there is interest in the community about just space in general and, and space is the next frontier. And that's something that, of course we're seeing is, or personal Elan Musk and Jeff Bezos and answer people exploring it at a personal level. But for now the primary. You know, or, or, um, pioneer or tenant of space is, is really the government, but you know how we're designing that technology and certainly where it intersects with some of these geopolitical questions can only be done via the government.
So [00:19:00] I think that there is interest in staying the assets that we have and, and, you know, for those white hat hackers who want to contribute to. National security. It's a huge opportunity too, to look at some of the architecture that, um, and sort of the way that our, um, our assets in space are designed and to, to do the scan for vulnerabilities.
[00:19:23] Jeremiah Roe: I'm a huge space nerd myself. So I'm just going to stay there as long as I can. Um, the. The satellite initiative that first came about was, was sort of a thing that Dr. Roper worked in tandem with on multiple levels to get that to happen and was commonly referred to as hack the sat. Right. That was so interesting to me.
And I remember when there were talks or buzz around that whole process. And I know somebody in the, um, in the space community who I was chatting with randomly about that one day, and they were like, He's going to do [00:20:00] what, where
[00:20:01] Katie Olson: Yeah.
[00:20:02] Jeremiah Roe: what's, what's the program name? Remember? Like I've I have no idea. I don't know what's going on.
If it was like, it was like, there's so much pushback to that because it's just never been done. And now it has, and I think there's been some great benefits.
[00:20:17] Katie Olson: Yeah, no, absolutely. One of the, you know, one of the things that we brought to Def con this year was a, um, a simulation of the, the first Mars Rover. And it was the goal was to allow people online. And this is one where the servers, again, the virtual has its its benefits.
It allowed people not in the room.
To try the, the goal is for them to gain control remotely, which is of course what you have to do if you're trying to hack into something in space, because you know, you're going to not be in space also. So, you know, those are the types of experiments that we want to one to start teach people about so that hopefully we're building a generation of [00:21:00] engineers and researchers that are thinking about.
That are thinking about technology in a totally different environment, but also we can bring those learnings back to the DOD to say, guess how quickly someone was able to gain access of the satellite and to reposition or to reposition this Rover. And what does that tell us about how we should be designing some of our equipment in the future?
[00:21:21] Bella DeShantz: We've talked about how beneficial some of this, all virtual has been where, you know, more people are able to participate and, um, and like kind of increasing that. Of, of, you know, getting hackers to work with the government. What are y'all doing to increase diversity in cybersecurity, uh, particularly in the government and what role can the government play in addressing the, you know, the issue of the lack of diversity in cybersecurity as a, as a field.
[00:21:50] Katie Olson: So we, as a team value, diversity and inclusion, and even before the pandemic, we made the decision that the [00:22:00] top 10. Th we made the decision that we would hire all over the U S and that the not to see ourselves at the top engineering talent is going to live in DC, near the Pentagon. And we pivoted quickly, um, in 2019 to an, in 2020, as the, as a pandemic emerged to recruiting top talents from a range of backgrounds across communities throughout the.
We also developed a tool or a playbook called break the code, which is, is proliferating throughout the department and for how we recruit and how we hire differently. So you're most government jobs. You see a position description that has a government. It has. What the grade is and how much you're being paid and, and demands that you have XYZ skills.
And we start to think about in terms of what do we want you to do? What are the types of work that we want to do to accomplish? You know, are you a designer? Are you, you know, and an RF [00:23:00] engineer. So we think we try and think differently and we don't use the. More traditional platforms like USA jobs, or, you know, we use LinkedIn and Twitter and Instagram, and we've used a number of platforms over the course of the past two and a half years that I've been here to make sure that we're finding you are meeting technologists where they are, which is usually not USA jobs and not always in DC.
I'm hopeful that that also goes a long way towards. Improving our diversity and inclusion because we're making sort of a, we're creating a flexible, welcoming environment that supports a variety of family situation. So I hope that we as government and certainly as a CVS can leverage this unique moment to continue to make improvement.
[00:23:47] Jeremiah Roe: There's a specific recruiting. I think that the Biden and administration dead and obviously have no, uh, nuclear, whether your team suggested this particular approach or not, but it was, it was, um, it was a really cool thing that they did [00:24:00] on. Trying to, um, identify and hire individuals towards the cybersecurity team that they were looking to fill.
And at the time, if you looked at the source code at the back end of the page
[00:24:11] Katie Olson: Yeah, it was genius. I was such a genius. Like if you're seeing this code, that means we want you like.
[00:24:17] Jeremiah Roe: yeah.
[00:24:17] Katie Olson: Like a great, um, it's great. And I think those are the types of creative, Easter eggs that we need to leave for people to get people excited.
[00:24:26] Jeremiah Roe: I'm a huge fan of Easter eggs. And, um, I remember finding that because I saw it come about and I try to stay plugged into cyber cybersecurity topics as much as I can just because I, you know, I live and breathe this stuff. And, um, I I'm always looking at.
[00:24:44] Katie Olson: You know, I think this administration has worked hard to increase in particular, the number of women in leadership positions. So I report to the deputy secretary. So that's the first female in the position. Um, Dr. Kathleen Hicks, there's a new female [00:25:00] administrator at.
USDS. I'm the first woman in the DDS leadership role.
I think there's, there's also hopefully, um, there's good momentum and, and a community of us emerging, which is.
[00:25:11] Bella DeShantz: Why is it so important, particularly in the work that you're doing? National security, cybersecurity. Why is it so important to have diversity in those conversations when we're, when we're working on this.
[00:25:22] Katie Olson: But it's important for a number of reasons. One, we need the diversity of skillsets. There are all kinds of problems that emerge within DOD. And then back to the conversation about cybersecurity across the federal government that. We need to be prepared for. So I think in, in terms of the engineering and technical talent, we need to be really comprehensive in terms of the skills that we're, that we're bringing on.
But I also, you know, again, from a user experience perspective, it's helpful to have people who represent. Different geographies, different politics, different cultural backgrounds, because we need to be able to talk to our users and we need to be able [00:26:00] to make relationships and communicate with the people that were intending to use our products.
And we can't do that. If we all look the same.
[00:26:08] Jeremiah Roe: What are some of the things that, that we can do to just as an industry, as a whole, right. That we can do to improve pathways for underrepresented group.
[00:26:17] Katie Olson: But One of the things that I also saw at Def con, which I really appreciated is you, you have these sort of side forums, you have blacks in tech, you have. Queer con you have all of these forums within some of these more larger established events or organizations that say, Hey, there's a space for you here.
So I think as we're developing conferences again, whether virtual or in person or continuing to run large events, I think that it's important to in some way signal that. Are you a member of a minority group or female, or, you know, in some way, feel [00:27:00] like there might not be a place for you traditionally in tech, it's important for us to signal that not only is there a place for you, but you are sort of uniquely positioned to help us think about things in different.
[00:27:12] Jeremiah Roe: One of the things that I've seen across the industry, too. There is that underrepresented groups tend to find folks more willing to help thrive in this industry. In a lot of ways are still things that we need to flush out and fix across the board. And I'm always curious to hear what, what others think those are, because, you know, I think I don't have the answer and I know, I know there are a lot of people that collectively, you know, we can come together and develop the way for.
[00:27:47] Katie Olson: really appreciate that. I appreciate the, is the, you know, the, the devil's in the details. Absolutely. So I appreciate you asking that question and. I look at our team. For example, [00:28:00] we have what we call the a Guild system. So communities of practice engineers data. Um, design, et cetera. And within those groups that's, so those groups are set up.
So one, we can share resources. And if we're finding a project is short, some engineers, you know, they start can talk to each other and figure out who might have cycles. But I think the smaller groups are also aware, you know, you might see, or even, you know, on the project level too, that's another sort of smaller group where you might see.
People not necessarily trained and D you know, in sort of inclusivity practices, they're talking over each other. They're not, um, you know, they're not as willing to, whether they're not used to someone's communication style. And so they might not be taking advantage of their skill set in the full way So I think for us there's opportunities at the project and at the community of interest level [00:29:00] to have real conversations about.
Are we, are we truly building environments where people can be heard, where they can contribute their skills, where we're being patient with some of the flexible work situations that they might need. So I think it's not, it's not just thinking about teams or organizations as a, as a whole and saying. We have really balanced numbers, but one of the, you know, one of the practices at the, at the working level that might present opportunities for, you know, people, uh, people in the majority to correct some blind spots and, and really have the benefit of hearing from their colleagues who might be marginalized for. one reason or.
[00:29:44] Jeremiah Roe: What are some of the other emerging?
[00:29:45] Katie Olson: This are climate work that we're embarking on is a really huge opportunity for the department to be forward-leaning as a major consumer of energy to you can't track what you [00:30:00] can't measure. So to get a better. Better handle on how much energy we're using and then to set real goals in terms of sustainability or infrastructure.
So I think that's, that's an area that we're working on and I'm really excited about, I think another area that we're supporting the deputy's office around is this data and AI space for DDS. We're not necessarily, we won't be the ones to be. A big data platform, for example, but because of all of the work we've done on the ground and where we run into challenges across a variety of projects, we are well positioned to inform the department on where basic tooling or infrastructure or talent is needed to be able to pursue some of these larger goals, jazzy to et cetera.
I think those are two areas that we'll continue to dive in on over the next year. So it's really, you know, at a minimum thinking about [00:31:00] climate and then thinking about how to, you know, laying the conditions for, for leveraging data, essentially.
[00:31:07] Jeremiah Roe: I know there are these huge budge buzzwords recently around, around AI and machine learning and, and sort of automating these detection mechanisms. Or automating offensive processes. What are your direct thoughts around those things and automating, you know, maybe a simulation around attackers or automating detection mechanisms and utilizing machine learning and artificial intelligence to close that.
[00:31:31] Katie Olson: We need confidence in the data and the algorithms that we're producing. So we need to ensure that the data that we're collecting, managing and using is accurate, that it's usable, that it's interoperable. So I think. I'm excited about the possibility of those things. But I do think that we need to build underlying trust in the data that [00:32:00] we're, um, that we're a math thing and that we also need different types of talent to process it, analyze it, look at it and utilize it in some way.
I'm excited about the possibilities, but I think we as a department and as a federal government need to spend time really thinking about good hygiene practices in that.
space.
[00:32:24] Bella DeShantz: You talked a little bit about identifying areas of threat that, you know, should be focused on as a whole going forward. What happens when you identify those areas? How do you stand up? Like how do you work with other areas of the government to stand up more longterm areas of focus or solutions, things like that.
[00:32:42] Katie Olson: It's a challenge for challenge for a certain, because when you're in the middle of a crisis, you Canton and shouldn't be thinking about. Where's the funding come or who's going to sustain this long term. And when we were in the middle of the pandemic and the Navy asked for the COVID [00:33:00] tracking app, so they can start to quarantine people.
It wasn't, it wasn't the time to figure out if it would be in a, in a budget cycle somewhere, or if, you know, could the Navy sustained in perpetuity, but as we stabilize the product, It was absolutely appropriate to one. I do an after action on why did you need DDS to stand that up? Is there somewhere within the services or the DOD that would be positioned for health tracking tools in the future?
So there's an after action on what was lacking that DDS had to be called in, in the first place. And then two for the tool that we actually. Are there places where it would continue to be useful. And again, what are the talent, tooling, and infrastructure that would be needed to sustain it? So the COVID tracking tool, for example, as the services get into the biometric and health tracking space for [00:34:00] troops and, you know, we all have, this are biometric watches, smart watches, things like that.
And that might be a really interesting application. So the question I think coming out of these crises is. What can we do better next time so that we can continue to solve this, or ideally be positioned ahead of the crisis to address it. And then two, what are the things that we've learned or the products that.
we built for the crisis that can have a new life?
[00:34:29] Bella DeShantz: I will ask you the final question, the potentially easy question. Um, what is one thing that we would not know about you just from looking at your LinkedIn profile or other like online presence?
[00:34:41] Katie Olson: Well, I think, I think you can tell from Rosemont line presence?
that I'm an avid runner. Um, so Kathleen, our constructor says to, to say that I just got engaged, that that might not be immediately obvious. So
[00:34:52] Bella DeShantz: Congratulations.
[00:34:53] Katie Olson: thank
[00:34:54] Jeremiah Roe: Congratulations.
[00:34:55] Katie Olson: you.
[00:34:57] Bella DeShantz: That's awesome. Thank you so much for, for, uh, [00:35:00] for talking with us today. That was, that was really cool. I, I don't know. I know like Jeremiah, I feel like you're so plugged in with everything that is going on with the government. I will admit that I'm not, and this was really interesting.
[00:35:10] Katie Olson: Great. And I've enjoyed being on. And I thought you guys had asked really great questions. And obviously the, the work that we, that we do, um, is, uh, is, is we feel like it's critical and we're at, we're really proud of it. So.
[00:35:22] Bella DeShantz: Yeah.